Episode 2: THE SIMPLE GENIUS OF KRAV MAGA WITH KELLY CAMPBELL
CJ Kirk
Okay, welcome back, Episode 2, Krav Maga Worldwide Podcast. This is CJ Kirk. I don't like my first name, but that's a different podcast.
I am sitting here and looking at Kelly Campbell, who has joined me for Episode 2. Welcome, Kelly.
Kelly Campbell
Thank you.
CJ Kirk
You are welcome. Last time we were here, I was with Joel, and I think I'll be with Joel again. Some of the feedback we had was that we were talking, and he would say something, oh, that's a good question, and then I would say something, he'd say, that's a good question, and people wrote in and said, we want to hear more on the podcast about Krav Maga, but, you know, was it rehearsed?
It's like, it was the last thing. The reason we were saying it was, you know, good questions, we were surprising each other with our questions, right?
Kelly Campbell
Nice.
CJ Kirk
So when we surprise each other today with our questions, don't say, that's a good question.
Kelly Campbell
I'll do my best.
CJ Kirk
Yes. We'll just, I'll give you the look, and you can give me the look.
Kelly Campbell
Okay.
CJ Kirk
Let's jump in. So, Kelly Campbell, Krav Maga Worldwide, tell me a little bit about yourself.
Kelly Campbell
About me.
CJ Kirk
When did you start Krav Maga? When did you start?
Kelly Campbell
Oh, I started Krav Maga in July of 1997.
CJ Kirk
Wow. That's very specific.
Kelly Campbell
It is. It was, I was member 197. I remember my member number.
I was very new. The school had just opened up in February of 97. So yeah, I do.
I actually remember that.
CJ Kirk
That's incredible. I don't remember what I had for lunch yesterday.
Kelly Campbell
Yeah, I don't either know what I had for lunch yesterday, but I remember when I started training in Krav Maga. It was very memorable.
CJ Kirk
That's awesome.
Kelly Campbell
And exciting. So 1997.
CJ Kirk
So you've been doing Krav Maga for how many years then?
Kelly Campbell
Well, I might get it wrong by a year or two.
CJ Kirk
Yeah, I'm putting you on the spot.
Kelly Campbell
But I believe that it's 26 years now.
CJ Kirk
Yeah, but 26 or 27, right? Yeah.
Kelly Campbell
So I got a year wrong.
CJ Kirk
No, no.
Kelly Campbell
Okay.
CJ Kirk
I started in 98. Right after. So you would have been starting right before me.
Interesting. So you are a woman.
Let's get that out right away. You started in 1997, and you're the gatekeeper for Krav Maga worldwide at this point.
Kelly Campbell
Yes, have been for many years. It's an exciting role, but also it has its difficulties. There's a lot of ups and downs with being the geek. The geek?
CJ Kirk
Yes, the geek.
Kelly Campbell
The geek. Being the gatekeeper has its ups and downs for sure.
CJ Kirk
I can only imagine. You know, I've been with you on a couple of situations where we were grading, and it's so hard to balance the relationship you have with people, because you've been, you call them your Krav Babies, which is uncomfortable for people, but still you do it, right? But you call them your Krav Babies, and then every once in a while, you have to tell them, hey, you didn't hit the standard.
Kelly Campbell
Yeah.
CJ Kirk
Is that what you're referring to?
Kelly Campbell
Yes, definitely.
CJ Kirk
Yeah. I think that's got to be hard. One of the things that I talk about with people when I have conversations with them, and I don't think it's, I think it's okay to have this conversation, but I had this conversation with Joel a couple of weeks ago.
I said, it's so difficult to be in your role and play the different parts of your role. Some of them are engaging, and some of them are about teaching, and some of them are friendship oriented, and some of them are like, well, you blew it, buddy. And I can imagine that's really difficult.
And then I think that for most of the decades I've been doing Krav Maga, two and a half decades, the population of my school until relatively recently has been about 85% men. And I thought to myself, how hard is it to be Kelly Campbell and come rolling up and have all these men? Was that ever something you thought about?
Kelly Campbell
To be honest, there was a short time in the beginning of when I started teaching about having a certain level of confidence in being like, do I have what it takes to teach these people? So even before I started doing the test, but just walking into a phase and knowing it's like, all right, here are these veterans, these former police officers, martial artists for a long time coming in, and now here I am relatively new, just a few years, three or four years into the system, and now I'm the one that's grading them. And the process that helped me was, can I help them?
I don't want to say fix them, but when I look at someone on the mat and I'm watching their ability and their skills, do I have something to contribute to their progression and their success? And when I think of it in that phrase, the answer was, yes, I believe I do. And then yes, I do.
So knowing that I could see something that maybe they didn't see or feel, even though they've been doing something for a long time, is that I had to separate whatever their history was didn't matter. You're on my mat. I have a responsibility to be a coach and help you to the best of my ability.
And that was the way I approached it. And being in that state of mind helped me from feeling insecure or going through it. So there were definitely times to where I would get a student that would want to challenge me or question me because of being a female, but I chose very early on to just dismiss that.
It is what it is, and that's the way I treat it, and I have a responsibility. My responsibility is, if you walk through my doors and you end up on my mat, I'm going to treat you the same, whether you're big, strong, and tattooed, or whether you're smaller. It doesn't matter.
So I think once, being that I was lucky to catch that early on, that I didn't really pay attention to people that were trying to give me attitude, so it didn't last very long. So, and there's a few, and I can give you some stories of when I had to put people in their place, for sure, but I'd say that was the start of it, is believing that, can I coach you? Can I help that person be better?
And that was the way I approached it, and that was my mission, and I didn't let my, you know they say judge a book, don't judge a book by its cover. It's really easy to do that when you're stepping up on the mat, and you see different people in body sizes, it's like, oh that person must be really good, or whatever, right? It's like, taking that, and really putting it to heart, and not judging any individual, and just it's like, you walk on my mats, this is what we're doing, this is what I see, and I go from there.
CJ Kirk
I think it's a really powerful perspective, and we've known each other a long time, and I've always respected you, and thought what a difficult job it is that you have, and have told everyone, I think you have a difficult job, by the way, and I love the recounting of how you approached it, right? It was more like, I've got a job to do, and nothing's going to stop me, that's fantastic. So we, I'm going to switch gears on us, and get into this little nitty gritty here.
We had some people comment from episode one, that they wanted to hear more about hands, body, feet. I had made a comment that if I could sprinkle fairy dust on people, and give them one skill, it would be more of a hands, body, feet approach to movement, and Joel had several people ask, and we had a couple people on social media say, you know, I'd like to hear more about hands, body, feet. I made a comment in the summit we had in January, and said, this is the skill for Krav Maga.
If you're not moving hands, body, feet, you're probably not getting to weapons, right? You're probably not landing your punches on entry, and my students, my instructors were there, and other people were coming up and saying, you got, I can tell who your people are, they're moving more like hands, body, feet, and there were people that thought they were moving hands, body, feet, and I showed them on video, and they're like, oh, I'm not moving hands, body, feet, right? And so people out there in the world, if you're not familiar with Krav Maga, hands, body, feet is a movement protocol.
It's one of the principles in Krav Maga, and it's not like an innovative name, it just is what it is. When you move, when you move in to strike someone, or you go get a weapon in particular, these are some powerful applications for hands, body, feet. You move your hands, you move your body, and you move your feet.
Now, it might be microseconds between the movements, but it makes a huge difference, and a lot of people will telegraph their movements by moving their body first, right? Yes. And it's a recipe for disaster, and so I said, I was trying to make a fairy dust, would you agree?
Would you weigh in on hands, body, feet a little bit?
Kelly Campbell
Yeah, I definitely agree that it's recognizing that process of hands, body, feet is a very important element, and thinking about being as efficient with your movement that you can. One of the things that we do that is really important and necessary that we do very well in our level one curriculum, and with our level one students, is that first we build the aggression, right? Because we have to.
And that does kind of essentially make it harder for hands, body, feet. So it's something that we have to mold into people after, because the mentality is important to being feeling that you're able to and willing to defend yourself. So developing that aggression in the level one curriculum, and still kind of incorporating that, but I think that one of the things that happen is that people are so inside their heads, is that their mind is thinking move forward, that the body actually moves forward before they start to think about moving those hands.
So as you mentioned, if you're going to land a strike, the more it's telegraphed, the less likely it's going to land or be defended. So letting your hands move first, and if you talk to anyone who is trying to be defensive and they're recognizing a potential threat, they're always told to look at the hands, right? Like watch the hands, watch the hands are going in.
So I think it's a very crucial element of what we do so that we can be the most efficient that we can, be the first to get the next strike in there in delivering it. So I think it's a very important element. But I think one of the problems with it is the mindset, which is we can't waver from that mindset.
And then as you get into the higher levels, it'll start to click in. And just putting a focus on it is going to be important for individuals. And as you said, like the videotaping, you might think that you're doing it, but until you slow it down and do some self-coaching and videotaping and watching what is actually moving first, letting your mind identify what's happening and letting your hand be the first thing to move and letting your body follow.
Our goal, once you become efficient, is it's hands, body, feet. But once you have the movement is that they all work together. So it may appear as though it's one movement, because we say hands, body, feet, you think of it as, well, should it be like dot, dot, dot?
No, it needs to have the fluidity. Yeah.
CJ Kirk
I think for people that don't understand that the difference between that and say leading and telegraphing is dramatic, particularly if you're standing in front of a handgun or a long gun or something like, which is an advanced issue, obviously. But we have a lot of advanced people in worldwide. And I really like your comment about aggression and level one.
In fact, what I found when I teach our masterclass here in Houston, what I find most is that people are aggressive and like, okay, now that you're moving into defenses where that movement protocol is impacted by an order of magnitude around the hands, body, feet protocol, I want you to take a step back and I want you to learn to move differently. And people go, well, how am I going to move differently? So we talk different ways about it.
But the thing that I found is most successful for me in teaching is to help people understand we're going to teach you speed first, which means the snapping of the hand. Then we're going to teach you power, which will get people to over-rotate and lean too much and fall forward. And then we're going to teach you balance.
So what I typically do with people after their level one, their level two test as they move into more of like a masterclass course is we kind of say, okay, we're going to keep the aggression, which is sort of vital, right? Because Krav Maga is a vessel in which to pour your aggression, right? It's essentially what it is.
But we sort of remake them in this image of speed, power, and balance in that order. And they tend to get it. And I think I've experimented with this with a group of students.
I think we're going to try to expand it to a wider audience and see if we can get more people moving hands, body, feet more quickly. Because one of the most frustrating things that people deal with is handgun in the front, handgun to the front, you know, off the body. And it's like, okay, pull the gun away.
And people are, I'm missing, I'm missing. It's like, well, do you feel yourself leaning? Do you feel yourself leaning?
So there's room, I think, for everybody, me, you, everybody to improve. But I think hands, body, feet is a place that everyone has like low hanging fruit if they can really, really bear down on it. I remember at the summit also talking about this in the context of philosophy, right?
And talking about what is your philosophy of Krav Maga. That came from a class where I showed a demo three different ways. You'd be proud of me, three different angles.
I explained it sort of ad nauseum a little bit. But what I really wanted them to pick up on is these are movements you already know. The Legos of Krav Maga, essentially.
Kelly Campbell
Right.
CJ Kirk
And we're just repurposing them in this particular context for this defense. And when the students started working, even though it's a master class, it wasn't clicking. So I called time out and I said to one of the students, a kid named Jared, I said, what's your process for noticing?
And he just stared at me. And I let him stare for about a minute and I go, what do you think? And he goes, like, he put his hands, like his mind blew or something.
And he said, I'd never thought about that, right? And so I think one of the other things that I want to encourage people to do is have an intention and a process around picking up what you're watching. Understand what you're watching.
Identify the principles that are being showcased in the defense that you're watching. Make sure you pick those up. Make sure you understand the application of those principles because that's what's going to make you successful.
That's what's going to allow you to look at something a couple times and go, okay, I can do that. As opposed to, would you show me another time? Would you show me another time?
And now I have a question. So thinking about the principles of Krav Maga, because we're on hands, body, feet, and really asking people to think about it in terms of an intention. Not only am I doing this, but do I have a process that allows me to identify those principles in real time and then go, okay, I know how to apply this now, right?
What are your thoughts on philosophy in Krav Maga?
Kelly Campbell
I think that, obviously, I feel that it's very important, but depending on where someone is in their process of learning, it may or may not distract them from their ability to physically apply it, right? So everybody's going to have that click at a different time in their training. One thing that I find that's very important is recognizing – so I mentioned Level 1 and our purpose is to really build aggression because that overcomes – aggressive counterattacks overcomes inadequate technique.
But as someone sticks with the system and you become higher, there's a certain level now where you have to realize that you have to know how to train slowly in order to develop a skill set. So you can't always train at 100%. If you were to take a professional fighter, they're not in there sparring at 100% in order to get better in the ring.
They're spending hours and hours and hours and hundreds and hundreds of reps on one movement and then to another movement and transitioning. And I think that applying that same idea and even working with – you've got a handgun technique. You need to recognize how to get your hand to the gun as fast as possible with just that movement.
So being okay with training slow and knowing how to go from when you're training to learn versus when you're training to defend your life. And when we get to the higher level krav students, it's really hard to backpedal them because all they can do is go. It's like I'm in it.
I'm going. But at a certain point, if you're sticking around in the system and you're taking hours into your training, slowing down, getting your reps in, getting to break through. So each movement of every technique has its own life.
So every time I defend my knife, I need to – as I just defended the mic right now.
CJ Kirk
You just defended the microphone, yeah.
Kelly Campbell
Every time I make that one movement, I need 1,000 reps to make that efficient. If I'm thinking about the end of my technique before I complete the beginning and middle, I'm going to always have gaps. So people have to – if you're able to just work on one piece of it, then work on the second piece of it, breaking it down.
And my instructors all know this. I put it into them as much as I can during our training sessions. And sometimes they're like, oh, I want to go into the other part.
But if you can't do it properly slow, you're not doing it right fast.
CJ Kirk
For sure.
Kelly Campbell
So being okay with slowing it down, then picking up. Slowing it down, picking it back up. But still in the end, working it under high stress and then getting it.
But you're not going to get efficient and proficient at it if you don't work the slow reps. And that's how you can get better at hands, body, feet.
CJ Kirk
Yeah, I think that's a fantastic comment. One of the things that came to mind when you were talking is the evolution of someone moving through the system initially as using aggression to fill gaps in technique, which I'm very, very strongly supportive of and believe works. If you don't know what the OODA loop is out there, being aggressive, working inside someone's OODA loop, not pausing and thinking about it, but making aggression or making fight, as some of these really say, really allows you to work inside that person's OODA loop, observe, orient, decide, and act.
Go look it up if you haven't heard of it before. I think it's paramount that we think less and are more decisive and action-oriented early on. Then you get to the point, Krav Maga, where you're standing in front of a gun, and if you go aggressively at it, you just get shot, right?
And so this migration, this evolution from fill your technical deficiencies with aggression to now you have to fill your technical difficulties with skill because the cost of being wrong in this defense is so much higher, and the defense you're making is so lopsided. It's not someone punching you. It's someone who's got the power to shoot you with a pistol, for instance, or a long gun.
So even understanding, for people that build instructors, how to think about or how to view the maturation of an instructor and where that demarcation point is where we're going, okay, now you've been super aggressive and things look pretty good, but now you're in a place where you have to find more technical proficiency in what you're doing. It's such an interesting topic because if you're sitting here and I'm sitting here and we're thinking about people and we're thinking about where does that happen and when does that happen? And, of course, it has to happen by the time you get to say Blue Belt where you're dealing with handguns.
But what an interesting comment, like we start here but we have to end here. It's like you read the book The Talent Code by Daniel Coyle. I mentioned that in the last podcast because he talks about what's called deep practice and how people create professional-grade skills.
And he talks specifically about this idea of going through things slowly multiple times, then running through it quickly and finding your point of failure and then slowly training that point of failure multiple times and then running through it and finding the next point of failure and slowly, right, in this iterative process of teaching our bodies and our minds to work together in the way that we want them to.
And what you're describing is like did you read The Talent Code?
Kelly Campbell
Actually, I have not. I don't know it and I'm working with a black belt group this weekend and we literally did that today where they assessed themselves. They figured out their areas and then they slowly worked on them and then constantly built through it.
But I think that there's a very important thing about the process of our system that is one of the things that always sets us aside and it's maybe a little off topic but I feel that it's important to say right now is that when we have people, we have certain things that we learn and that we stress in our lower levels because if we never get to see those people again, we need them to be as efficient as possible and aggression is the answer, right?
If you're going to stick around and you want to get to the higher level stuff, that means that you're going to put in the time, right? So it is not something being proficient at knife defenses and gun defenses is not something that you can learn in a one-time workshop. And so the aggression is crucial and it's something that we do with our drill setting and getting them and being responsive right away.
It's like getting into that fight mode versus freeze and getting them to train and work hard and then they become addicted and they keep going through it. We all did it, right? It's like the training that we do is amazing and the way that we develop this passion as students and when you see that and it is a little bit of a switch and it might seem a little bit backwards.
It's like because I've had many students that are like, well, Kelly, you've always told me to be aggressive. Now you're telling me not to be aggressive. I'm like saying don't lose that but I need you to harness it.
I need you to understand that that's an area that I need you to keep but I need you to put it on the back burner for the moment so that we can improve the skill set for you, right? So now you're in a different level. You're higher.
You have a foundation. You know the fundamentals of the system. You have skills that can get you to a certain level but now you want to go to the next level.
So now it's like you've got to recognize how to slow down to improve your practice and then pick it back up so that like slow to fast, slow to fast. Yes. So crucial to development.
CJ Kirk
Yeah, it's amazing that something that the leadership at Worldwide, you and Darren and others have done for decades and seized on even before the book was written, right? I think that's impressive and we could go back and talk about Imi and how impressive that guy is but I want to think about Imi in this particular perspective. I mentioned it in the first podcast.
He was a wrestler among other things. He was a boxer, wrestler, gymnast, right? Don't you think if Amy wanted a bunch of wrestling moves in Krav Maga, he would have put them in there?
Don't you think?
Kelly Campbell
I do but, I mean, yeah, I think that there's recognizing like being well-rounded and this is kind of an odd, I like it, so I'm just going to say it. It was part of our phase A lectures when instructors go through and we talk about Krav Maga having the ER doctor approach to self-defense, right? And I think that there's huge value in recognizing that as a system and what we're doing is that I'm efficient enough in all areas of the potential fight to be able to defend myself versus being a master.
Now, there's nothing wrong with and there's high value based on your interest of exploring one area more than another as far as ground, to wrestling, and to stand up, is that there has to be a combination of being able to transition from one position to the next to maintaining a strong position. So I think that there's enough. Could we modify and which we're constantly trying to do is seeing like what is something that might be simpler and better for the practitioners as we're moving through it.
So I think that the way his approach, Imi's approach to what we do, and I'm just going to boast a moment of glory for myself. I guess it's not a glory, but it was just an eye-opener. When Darren gave me my first degree black belt at our instructor meeting in our original training center, he said something that he said, he said, Imi made the system for you.
And that was something that was so powerful because it was the idea that I'm unique and that it's something that I can do. It's not just one way, this way, and only this way, that there has to be variance in all things that we do. And it's something that I try to continuously pass on as I develop new coaches and instructors.
So, but should there be more? I guess it depends.
CJ Kirk
Yeah, I think of it this way. And what I'm seeing is like this hybrid Krav Maga stuff that people are putting out where there are departures from the way that we defend in more authentic Krav Maga. Not that Krav Maga doesn't evolve, or even our symbol shows a broken circle so that things that are suboptimal can leave the system and more optimal things can come in.
But I think of the system in the phraseology of meant for, I'll get it out, meant for men and women, big and tall, short and small, right? And maybe that's some of what Darren was alluding to when he was talking to you. And when I see, you know, even in my own class, 130-pound guys asking me if they should go two-on-one on a knife attack, and it's like, not unless you want to be put on the wall and killed.
And so I think what people don't understand about Krav Maga, because a lot of people think Krav Maga is like this ultra-violent thing, and it's like, don't go in there and do that. It's actually an ingenious system. And the levels of genius in the system are multifaceted.
One is that you can understand a technique by reading a pamphlet, right? But the reason that we do the things in that technique could be explained, you know, in detail and fill up the Library of Congress, right? So the thinking and the detail and the reason we're doing things is hugely, hugely deep.
But because it's so, there's an elegance in the simplicity of it. And to make the system that simple, you really have to do a lot of work to get it to that place, right? And the analogy that I typically will use with newer students is, imagine you have a box of Legos, but they're all the same size.
And you pour them on the floor, let's say there are 40 or 50 of them. Each Lego represents a motor skill. And what Krav Maga does is we build different things with these Legos, right?
And so you may see some Legos in level one. And when you're in level six, you may be able to identify, as I described earlier, those Legos in a different defense or a technical aspect of making self-defense. And I think one of the things that's so powerful about that is being able to show up and understand what you're looking at and how, I don't want to say simple, but how elegant the simplicity is of the system.
It's really something that, you know, people talk about this in the world of technology. behind that is so tremendous, right? And I think Imi, in his back alley fights, was realizing that the boxing and the wrestling and things I'm doing are not sufficient for me to survive. I've got to figure out some other way to do this, right?
And of course, that's a huge biological incentive to begin to think about and understand how to deal with violence. And we're the beneficiaries of that, right? So for those people out there, like hybrid Krav Maga, it's like there's no such thing as hybrid Krav Maga.
Krav Maga in and of itself is in many ways a hybrid, but you don't want to, you don't want to, it's almost like a marketing gimmick, right? I don't like it.
Kelly Campbell
I haven't heard specifically that there's programs out there that are calling themselves hybrid Krav Maga.
CJ Kirk
Yeah, this is called hybrid Krav Maga. And it's, there's sort of subtle departures from what we do. And a lot of the movements are strength movements, right?
And so we talked about this in the last podcast, for instance. We talked about wrestlers. Wrestlers might be the most in shape, powerful people on the planet.
Like if you watch Olympic wrestling, it's impressive. I have no doubt those guys can defend themselves doing whatever they want to do, but Krav Maga is for men and women, big and tall, short and small. And so finding a way to develop a defense that captures as many of those people as we can and creates efficacy for as many of those people as we can is such a difficult and powerful goal, right?
It's different than, well, you can, you can just, you know, wrestle or you can just do this. And it's like, look, I've had thousands upon, in fact, over 10,000 students have come through my doors in the last 25 years. And most of them are not powerful.
Most of them are not fast. Most of them are not very coordinated. I know you know what I'm talking about.
Kelly Campbell
Yeah.
CJ Kirk
You alluded to it earlier when you said, oh, this is a big guy with tattoos. He's going to be good. And he's like, he bounds around like he's about to fall down, right, right.
So making sure that there is the democratization of self-defense happened with Krav Maga. And when people try to create strength moves, as part of that, they're taking that away from people who need the power of Krav Maga, right? The strength of leverage.
Kelly Campbell
They're taking it away from the people it was intended for.
CJ Kirk
You're exactly right.
Kelly Campbell
Yeah. And that's definitely, you know, one of the things is, I get questions all the time about, oh, I've seen this and I see people changing things and going into this position. And I always come back to the simplest end user.
Like, how is it going to work for that individual? The person that is going to only come in only has the ability to train a few times, and I might have them for six months, right? So what we do in level one, the curriculum, well, before I go into that, one, as is, as, like a punch is a punch, a kick is a kick, like Imi is not saying we are not saying that Krav Maga invented those things.
No. We are definitely accumulation of what works the best. The meat and potatoes of what is going to be the most efficient way and foundational ways that the body works for striking, right?
So the simplest, strongest, most efficient.
CJ Kirk
Yes.
Kelly Campbell
And then we go on principles, right? A principle-based system. Utilizing all of our principles and then equating those and then using the skill sets that we know that people, like, why create, recreate the wheel for the things that work?
But then applying into it the mentality and how we are going to do it. So there are certain things that we are going to teach individuals in a level one, because it is like, I may never see you again. I got you for three months.
I need to make sure that when you, if you never, are never able to come back, that what I did, how I trained you, is going to be with you for a lifetime, right? So the way we train is a key element to what Krav Maga is. And it is being aggressive with drills, getting you to function under high stress, getting you to perform where you did not think that you would be able to.
Because when something happens to you out there, you need to have that under your belt, because that is not where people live these days, right? So then, as you go up through the system, like, getting even into level three, these are still people that are average and they are not super high skilled, right? They are not super efficient.
We are not talking instructors. We are talking the end user. Right.
So a lot of the things that I see is people get bored and they like a certain process or training method. And look, as we all start to work on stuff, yeah, sure, it can get boring if you are doing the exact same thing. So you are like, all right, well, this feels good for my body type, so I am going to make this small adjustment.
And we want people to do that, because you have to make it work for you. But what you cannot do is you cannot change the system based on your preference. It has to be for the end user.
We have to constantly go back to the people that we are training and who it is for, and that is why having the simplest actions that we do in our level one is going to be different than what I am going to talk to you about in Blue Belt. And it has to go to the end user, the person that is going to need to use it. I make you 1% better every time you are in your class.
I try to overload you with something that is a strength move and it is not going to be effective for that person. I have just done you a disservice, and you are not going to be able to defend yourself, and you are going to be overloaded and probably not come back. I think that when individuals are making and adding in their preferences, it is cool, it is fun.
I like some of the stuff I see that I might try, but I would never take it and change the system to doing that stuff. So now you are only approaching the audience. Here is who you are, again, you are leaving out the people that it was intended for.
You are bringing in people that are athletic, that have an intention of maybe doing fighting and doing that, but you are not doing it for the average person that is afraid to walk on the mat, and that is who we need to be. We need to constantly be the system, the self-defense practitioners that are going to be there for the person that is afraid to walk on the mat, and that is going to want to come in and feel safe, and feel like it is attainable. If you are doing stuff that is not attainable, they are going to be like, oh, my God, I will never be able to do that.
We do not want that.
CJ Kirk
Tornado kick, right?
Kelly Campbell
Yes.
But I think that we have done a fantastic job at Krav Maga Worldwide in maintaining that structure so that we can keep everything that we have in our level one. We have just enough, just enough. It is more about how we train them, what is technically in the curriculum, and getting them safer and wanting them to come back.
We have a fun, we make a very intense topic fun for them to want to come back and continue to train, and I think that is what we cannot change, and I will never defer from. And I get all these questions all the time, and I always go back to, will that work for your level one students? Yeah.
And if the answer is no, then it has to go, right? And where are you going? So I think that we need to constantly think about our end users, see how can we make them better in their progression, keep them coming back, retention, and keeping them wanting to come back.
They cannot get hurt, they cannot feel like they cannot attain it, but getting to where they want to come back, and then when we get them into those higher levels, then we can start to work on, you know, like you said, the hands, body, feet comes into practice a little bit more. I'm very passionate about that, and it's something that I always stick true into. And I'll tell you this, I've had techniques that I've worked on, and I'm like, people will be like, Kelly, why don't we do it this way, why don't we do it that way?
I'm like, all right, let's play with it. I'm like, okay, you know what, I kind of, I can see that approach. Let's practice it, and then I'll start doing it for a little while, and then I'll train with a different body type, and I'll train with a different person, and I'll go through this whole circle, and there's more times than not, I mean, every single time, I always end up back to the original inception of the technique, and the position that Amy put us in, that Darren continuously focused on, is that this is the best way, why, because of all of these other variables, right?
So, I play with stuff, I want to be open, but then when it comes around to the end, I'm like, that's just not going to work, and it might work for you as an individual, but I'm not changing the system for you. It's about. You're not going to change it for me?
No. I'm going to hold it to our principles, and we have to always think about the mass.
CJ Kirk
I agree 100%. It's funny that there's two things, there's a bunch of things I took, but two things I want to mention from what your, your just previous comment. The first thing is showing where your heart is, and talking about I may only have the students for three months, and I have to get them as ready as I can, as opposed to someone who is thinking about how they can squeeze as much money out of them as they can, right?
I think people that are most successful in this business, our business, Krav Maga in particular, are people who just love what they do, and who fully embrace their responsibility to the people that walk through their door. And I can tell where your heart is, and I know it's been there, but it was really showing there with how impassioned you were about it. I've got to get them ready for the fight of their life in three months.
And it's like, yeah, that's what it is. That's what it can be. The second thing is this whole idea of empowering people and having them for a short period of time, and what made me think of Darren was that comment that you made about having people for a short period of time.
And for those people that don't know Darren Levine, a U.S. Chief Instructor, Founder's Diploma Holder, a brilliant guy, an attorney, prosecuted crimes against police officers, I think he was the head of his law class. He's just a very, very, very intelligent guy, very impassioned, great personality. And, you know, one of the things that I see in him that is extra special about him is his capacity to take people, 200 people in a room, I've seen it happen, that don't know much Krav Maga or just stopped in because they thought, oh, I'll learn some Krav Maga during the seminar, and teach them something significant in six hours, right, to have them moving and working and build the drill and build their confidence and build their aggression. That's a testament not only to Darren, who's a special person, but also to Imi and the way that he taught Darren and the way the system is built.
It's just, I wish that people knew what you and I know.
Kelly Campbell
Yeah.
CJ Kirk
And they're not like, oh, Krav Maga is scary, because one of the things I want to circle back to is there are misogynists in the world. One of my instructors joined when I did intro class, and then he came back, and I had a female instructor, and he's like, where's the big guy? Like, I don't want to learn from a lady.
And we went, we had to tell him, hey, man, this is for everybody, and I'm not the poster child for Krav Maga. Nancy Patu is. Do you remember Nancy?
Kelly Campbell
I do.
CJ Kirk
Four-foot-eleven, Nancy Pants, right?
Kelly Campbell
Yeah.
CJ Kirk
She was one of my first instructors, and I thought, if she can be an instructor and she can do this well, then the system proves itself, and she certainly did. She's a math teacher in high school, by the way, but, you know, and just a math geek and can do Krav Maga. And I think it really points to the origins and the first intention of Krav Maga, which is, Imi had to develop a system that Israelis, who all serve, could learn quickly.
Men and women, big and tall, short and small. And I think he succeeded. I think the amount of pressure that was put on him to find a way is a big part of how he has succeeded, and he must have been a very intelligent person.
But I think that that is, that's telling. The other piece that I really, really resonated with when you were talking is playing with different stuff and ending up where you started, right? Understanding this, even though I like to do this defense this way, even though this is an interesting way to do this, even though this looks cool when I do it this way, the access to the system, in my experience, exclusively, even though we play with things, always lands back in how Imi drew up the system.
It's a pretty incredible thing. It shows you that he himself was someone who was essentially a genius, right? To, I'm stumbling around here, to develop something 80 years ago, maybe my math is wrong, but about 80 years ago, and to have it still be relevant today, that's incredible.
Kelly Campbell
It is. It's really incredible when I think about learning from Darren, the passion that he has and delivers. Like, it just says so much, and the breakdown.
You know, even when you hear, it's out there somewhere. I don't know exactly where it is, but Darren was talking about a situation with Imi, and it was about simplicity. If it's not simple, they're not going to do it, right?
If you make it complicated, they're not going to come back. They're not going to do it. Darren had just gotten this new car, and he was super excited about this sports car that he got, and he couldn't wait to show Imi, and the seatbelt was difficult to get to.
CJ Kirk
I remember the story. Yeah, right? It's just a very good car, the seatbelts, yeah.
Kelly Campbell
It's like, it always paused back into my mind, and, you know, I think about those things. I have these moments where it just go back to, you know, the way Marnie taught me, and certain things that she'd say, and things that Darren would say, they're so, like, ingrained in me, and it's like, you know, I hear from people, just because we've done it for a long time, or we've always done it, doesn't mean it's still the right thing to do. So, I take that into account, and I'm like, okay, you could be right.
I am very comfortable with this technique. I've got many years of reps on it. It's very instinctive for me, so I want to be able to think about it, and that's why I go, I'm like, all right, well, let me, let me, okay, take that aside, and try to practice and hear what you're saying, so that, because I'm not always right, and there might be a better way, and if there is, then I want to know, and bring it to our committee, and see if, like, guys, do we need to make this adjustment, right, and going through those processes, and there's people out there, and you'll know who you are that have been included in me saying, like, hey, guys, this is something that, let's work on it.
Let's play with it. It's not a change of the system, but I want to see where we're going with this, and that it, you know, been a part of why do we, you know, why do we do it this way, and when you add in the potential, like, you, I don't want to go into, like, specific techniques, and all of that kind of stuff, but, again, lots of reps, lots of playing in different variations, lots of different types of attackers and tensions, it does. It goes back to what Imi initially put out there, and it's like, this is the best way to start it, and going into it, and I think our KUFMEM and the Open Circle is a very important element of what we have, and it does mean that there are things that we could bring in.
There's things that we can modify, and we're working on those things, but they're going to be super small adjustments. There's no, there's nowhere in the system that I feel that we have a big lapse. There might be, all right, we could tweak it this way, or maybe use this verbiage, but I feel that we've got a very solid practice if you understand it the right way.
If you don't have the right understanding, then, yeah, there's going to be holes, but that's going to come with your process of learning and growing, and that's why you've got to stick with it, right? If you're a phase A or B instructor, you don't have a full understanding of the system, and it's going to take time, and that's okay, so stick with it. We're the best, and I believe with all my heart.
That's why I've been here for this many years.
CJ Kirk
Yeah, you've had chances to leave.
Kelly Campbell
I have, and I stay with Darren. I believe in everything that I teach. I've tried to be, you know, there's been, everywhere I go, and it's not that I want to do it, but people want to put me in a supervisor position, or they want me to do sales.
I don't want to do sales. I cannot bullshit my way through a sale. I cannot.
CJ Kirk
Well, with Krav Maga you don't have to bullshit, right?
Kelly Campbell
You don't have to. Yeah, it's all, it's all, it's all within my heart, and it's got to work for everybody, and it can't just be one person or one group of people. It has to be for the majority, the mass.
It has to be for the mass, not the majority, and I think that we're doing that, and I believe in it, and I, I'm just excited every time I get to go on the mat and work with my black belts that I'm working with now, and the brown belts I worked with last week, and the phase A people, like, everybody that's coming through. It's just amazing, and I'm so grateful for, for everybody putting their time and energy into it, and, but that's what we, we've got to stick with the principles.
CJ Kirk
I agree 100%.
Kelly Campbell
It's the key.
CJ Kirk
Yeah, I love that. I actually told Joel last week, Joel Ellenbecker, who's with the leadership team with us, and was on episode one, very curious guy, very curious about what he can learn. He just did his third degree black belt, and still curious.
Like, he's not resting on his laurels. He's not going, I'm a third degree, but he's going, who out there can I look to and learn more from, right? And I love that attitude, and you described that, too, in some of the things you've been saying, but I love the way that you describe what you do, and I told him last week, Kelly Campbell may have the best job on the planet, right?
Kelly Campbell
It's a unique position. I, like, it was made, yeah, there's not very many opportunities.
CJ Kirk
There's not very many of those.
Kelly Campbell
Yeah, it's a pretty awesome, it's a pretty awesome job, role, and, but it also comes with its responsibilities.
CJ Kirk
That's right. And you've handled them well. I do, I do think you've done a fantastic job for decades.
I can't say I'm proud of you, but proud for you. Does that make sense?
Kelly Campbell
Thank you.
CJ Kirk
I appreciate what you do, and all you do. I would say this, before we stop talking, one of the things that we've been sort of circling this whole conversation about is the system first mentality, and people asking questions about, should Krav Maga look like this, or look like that, or should I include this? And the question itself creates an awareness in me that they don't understand the system first mentality.
And for people who are listening, when you develop a martial art, or you think about a defense in a martial art, in the context of learning self-defense, more than one thing, you either develop a system, or you develop an optimal defense for every attack, which then gets you an optimal defense for every flavor of every attack. So being choked with two hands, with arms straight, and with elbows out, and with elbows down, and that's how some systems end up with 2,000 defenses, right?
Kelly Campbell
Yes.
CJ Kirk
Which is entirely inaccessible. It's like trying to pick a defense out of a catalog under stress, right? Which one of the 2,000 things am I supposed to do right now?
What does the angle of the elbow look like so I can decide which one of these three defenses to do? Well, you don't even have access to that kind of thought process. So in another episode, I wanna go deeper with the system-first mentality, because that's part of the genius of Krav Maga.
The Legos are part of that, sort of that overall understanding, the Lego analogy. But people have to understand that the genius in Krav Maga isn't just the principles. It's the principles applied to a system, and that system using motor skills that we didn't invent in Krav Maga, but that have power and efficacy and strength for people, power for people.
And so I just wanted to get you to give me a comment, other than like shut up, but a comment on... That was before the mic was rolling, right? System-first, what are your thoughts on system-first?
Kelly Campbell
I'm all for it. It is, it has to be, it has to be that, because if you're not focusing on the system-first, then you're going in too many directions. It takes away from the end users again, right?
And you're leaving people out. So it has to be system-first in order to keep those focuses on. And you talked about the choke defenses and different positions of the arms.
There might be defenses out there that might be a little bit better than one of the things that we're doing. However, if it's adding an extra technique into a place where now the decision-making for those individuals is gonna be delayed, that could be a matter of their life and death. And so by making a choice, it's like we have to make a choice.
So there are a lot of different ways to do arm bars. And it's just an example, because there's a lot of different ways to do many things. But at a certain point, we have to pick one way and teach that way in order to keep things simple so that it can be learned.
And once you become more proficient, you've trained for 20 years, you can do whatever you want, but it's not about you, it's about those end people. And that's where it has to be the system-first. It has to be fewer techniques for multiple situations for faster decision-making and be more successful in the fight with the aggression.
It has to be that way.
CJ Kirk
Yeah, I think people forget that there are instinctive responses that need to be harnessed. They forget that they're on the clock and that after four or five seconds in a violent encounter, if you haven't extricated yourself, the odds of you being really injured or killed are much higher and when you apply the demands on the human body and the human mind and emotion that a violent encounter requires, all these ideas of manufacturing and optimizing every little nuance in every defense, they just fall away. And even as I say that, I know people are out there going, I don't understand what you mean.
But imagine that there are requirements, prerequisites that have to be met before a defense can move into the system like for Krav Maga, for instance. And if you think about those requirements, it's not just that it works at 25% with someone your size, it's that it works in a turdy situation. So turd is tense, uncertain, rapidly evolving and debilitating physically and mentally.
So under that situation with someone who's stronger and has surprised you and under stress and under the deficiency of a relative imbalance of strength and under the influence of instinctive responses that are coming out of your amygdala and the inability to access your executive center, the frontal cortex of your brain and all these things, it's like, now test it. And don't test that one, have them close their eyes and grab them one of 20 ways. And everything breaks down. It doesn't work if you try to optimize all those things. The genius in Krav Maga or part of it is that whole Legos analogy and being able to take motor skills that fly from you and harness instinctive responses and sort of begin a motion you connect to a motor skill or even to muscle memory. That's one of the most powerful things about Krav Maga.
And I love the idea of people beginning to really embrace and understand system-first mentality. We have to stop real quick for a sponsor break. No, we have no sponsor, sorry, no sponsor break.
So what is your comment on system-first and what I just said in particular? Do you think people understand it? Do you think they really understand it at a level that they embrace it?
Kelly Campbell
No.
CJ Kirk
Me either.
Kelly Campbell
I do not. I don't think that they quite understand it, but I think that by having these conversations, it's going to help people start to see it from there.
And it's like, look, when people come into our class, we have them for an hour, we talk about what we can. So it takes time to get to that. So by having these conversations, having the podcast where it's something that we can start to discuss and bring it out there, hopefully people will get that vision and understand things sooner.
It's hard to get people to understand that they show up for an hour, they go through all this, they learn these few techniques, and then they're off, they come back in a few days. So I think that there's hope in getting more people to understand it. And I think that it's a good next step.
CJ Kirk
Yeah. Yeah. There's more to be said on system-first mentality and why it's so far superior to trying to engineer every defense and every flavor of every defense into some kind of optimal, you know, hybrid, this, that, and the other thing.
It's gross to me, gross. Kelly, Kelly Campbell. Yes.
It was so good to talk to you.
Kelly Campbell
It was great. It was great talking with you too.
CJ Kirk
You know, I don't think I've ever closed a podcast and I'm not sure what to do now.
Kelly Campbell
What do we do? Oh, I don't know.
CJ Kirk
It's my first one ever. It's your first one ever. Hey, thanks for listening to the Krav Maga Worldwide podcast.
Episode two, Kelly Campbell is our guest. She is the gatekeeper for Krav Maga Worldwide for over two decades. A wonderful person, someone who really cares.
If you're lucky enough to train with her, count your blessings. We appreciate everybody that's listening. Hopefully we're educating a little bit, if not entertaining.
The sponsor thing was a joke. Come on, man. That's what I got.
That's what I got for episode two. Thanks, Kelly.
Kelly Campbell
You're welcome. And thanks everyone for listening. Look forward to talking with you again soon.
CJ Kirk
Yes, thank you.
Kelly Campbell
Kida.
CJ Kirk
Kida.
