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Re: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNs81aABKEA&eurl=http://www Dennis Hanover system
This is why i think that some classes should be with full aggression.
I hope that when i move to upper levels if i pass. it will be trained their.🙂
Re: Hisardut Dennis Hanover system
http://www.dennis-hisardut.org.il/
This is the main Hisardut site. The other one posted is the site of Alon Stivi…a Hisardut black belt who had Dennis’s authority to teach in the US.But he prefers to promote the military/force protection aspect of Hisardut and not the civilian style martial art. At least thats my impression.
Dennis Hanover is well known and respected in Israel and was friends with Imi. He is also very close friends with Haim Zut and the Krav Maga Federation. He regulary attends their black belt ceremonies.
Hisardut is basically a mix of Kyokushin Karate , Judo/jiu jitsu and Israeli military combatives. Hisardut fighters are tough and hard as nails. Amir Perets(KMWW) and Boaz Aviram(IKMA) were also Hisardut fighters before focusing on KM. There is a lot of crossover in membership.Re: Hisardut Dennis Hanover system
Oh…I also have an old black belt magazine from 1981 that has what is probably the first article on KM in america since it was published before Darren and the others went to Israel. It not only profiles Imi and KM but it also talks about Dennis Hanover and references and ealier article about him.So Hisardut was probably the first Israeli martial art to be introduced to the american public.
Re: Hisardut Dennis Hanover system
Is the system thought along side KM in the IDF or different units get different systems? I thought it was KM.
Re: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNs81aABKEA&eurl=http://www Dennis Hanover system
quote No Mercy:Nice the use a lot of good moves. I don’t argue about what is better.
I now that this system works. and you cant learn it if you are not in the IDF.If you were referring to Hisardut (somewhat vague based on context), you CAN learn it whether you are in the IDF or not as I have personally taken private lessons at their own facilities. I believe they also have regular classes for all ages. Maybe you were referring specifically to the military version if that is only taught to the IDF?
Re: Hisardut Dennis Hanover system
quote kvmorl:Is the system thought along side KM in the IDF or different units get different systems? I thought it was KM.The Israeli military calls it KM, but it is actually a system developed from some aspects of KM and some Hisardut – designed for the specific needs of the military… Another system, centered around executive protection is the type of Hisradut/KM mix shown in the first video posted in this thread… It is taught to people who are no longer IDF but have continued to work with governmental institutions…
Edit: Neither of these two systems is 100% Israeli civilian KM, and U.S. taught civilian KM is not 100% the same is Israeli. All four systems do have common ancestries though, which is kinda cool.
Re: Hisardut Dennis Hanover system
quote Satilan:Edit: Neither of these two systems is 100% Israeli civilian KM, and U.S. taught civilian KM is not 100% the same is Israeli. All four systems do have common ancestries though, which is kinda cool.If we want to get technical none of krav is 100% Israeli. The early genisis of the systems was FAS WWII combatives taught to Jewish commandos to fight the Nazi’s by the British in the promise of a Homeland.. in the aftermath trainers from around the world were brought in and techniques cherry picked. The important delivery system was taken from western boxing and a sylabus developed at first to teach raw recruits. Very Basic. Very fundamental. The drills developed to teach aggressiveness. To take civilians and to hone fighting spirit. Its interesting to me that most IDF krav instructors have jujitsu and judo backgrounds.
To me what is Israeli about the system is the aggressivenss of the training. They strived for practicality. While many systems became Do’s or “ways” the Israelis because of their situation remembered why the martial arts existed. What their purpose was. To my uneducated eye krav is a mentality.
The more you look at systems the more similar they become. Truth being truth and all
Re: Hisardut Dennis Hanover system
quote unstpabl1:If we want to get technical none of krav is 100% Israeli.Yes, Krav Maga is based mostly on other previous Martial Arts but a lot of it was developed and researched during the last 60 years by the differnt KM groups within Israel… yet again, it could be that this research was mostly incorporating other martial arts into it. When I was taught KM in Israel no one claimed it was completely Israel; they said that it purposely incorporated many aspects from different arts into something that is 100% modern and realism oriented.
quote unstpabl1:The early genisis of the systems was FAS WWII combatives taught to Jewish commandos to fight the Nazi’s by the British in the promise of a Homeland..There was no such promise of a homeland if we were to fight the Nazis. In fact, during WWII the British imposed great bans on Jewish immigration to the province of Palestine. The Jewish brigades that participated in mostly the training of partisans in Europe had enough reasons to fight the Nazis without the British offering anything. (Think 6,000,000 reaons) Plus, some British generals (e.g. Wingate) stationed in Palestine chose to help the Jewish community defend itself from Arab raids and thus organized, trained, and mobilized many such Jewish “defense” groups.
quote unstpabl1:… Its interesting to me that most IDF krav instructors have jujitsu and judo backgrounds.Jiu Jitsu was never very big in Israel, at least not until the late 90’s. Krav Maga however, does incorporate a lot of Jiu Jitsu techniques to its ground fighting – and nobody tries to hide that it is Jiu Jitsu… they even told us it was… But Jiu Jitsu’s so useful, that of course they’d teach it! That’s the point… no?
quote unstpabl1:To me what is Israeli about the system is the aggressivenss of the training. They strived for practicality. While many systems became Do’s or “ways” the Israelis because of their situation remembered why the martial arts existed. What their purpose was. To my uneducated eye krav is a mentality.Civilian Krav Maga, while born from a military necessity, has long ago separated itself from the volatile situation of the Middle East. When I studied Krav Maga in Israel, going home safe and criminal threats were emphasized 99% of the time – much like in the Los Angeles KM schools I go to.
In addition, I believe that Israelies in general, are not “more aggressive because of living in a worn torn country” I just think we come from very different cultural backgrounds where different values are held in high esteem. Europeans are also more “direct” and aggressive than Americans – is it because of their conflict? BTW: This is not to say that one culture is better than the other…
quote unstpabl1:The more you look at systems the more similar they become. Truth being truth and allAll systems have common origins. I feel this is true.
Good comments man!
Re: Hisardut Dennis Hanover system
quote Satilan:.There was no such promise of a homeland if we were to fight the Nazis. In fact, during WWII the British imposed great bans on Jewish immigration to the province of Palestine. The Jewish brigades that participated in mostly the training of partisans in Europe had enough reasons to fight the Nazis without the British offering anything. (Think 6,000,000 reaons) Plus, some British generals (e.g. Wingate) stationed in Palestine chose to help the Jewish community defend itself from Arab raids and thus organized, trained, and mobilized many such Jewish “defense” groups.
Jiu Jitsu was never very big in Israel, at least not until the late 90’s. Krav Maga however, does incorporate a lot of Jiu Jitsu techniques to its ground fighting – and nobody tries to hide that it is Jiu Jitsu… they even told us it was… But Jiu Jitsu’s so useful, that of course they’d teach it! That’s the point… no?
is better than the other…
All systems have common origins. I feel this is true.
Good comments man!
I know ROK Military Hapkido masters were sent to Israeli military. Hapkido is basically Korean Jujitsu. Judo also was/is big. Jujitsu is the more violent parent of judo. Wasn’t talking BJJ whose parent is judo. The CKM guy has a JUjitsu background. The Judo/Jujitsu conection makes sense because much of the FAS WWII was based on it. I defer to you but most IDF Krav trainers have prior martial art training not necessarily Krav to get the job. They then teach the sylabus the military tells them to.
I’m pretty sure I can find cites, but I don’t claim to be an historian. My understanding was that in WWI Jews were trained by the British with the understanding or promise of a homeland if they fought against the Germans. They reniged. In WWII the British came to them again then pretty much reniged again, but this time after certain groups fought back. Anyway I cpould be wrong and I’ll check my sources.
I’m a little over historied at the moment as I just spent time on another forum discussing how if the Israeli’s would stop oppressing the palestinians and how the UN has taken care of Israel. Of couse the UN guy never heard of the 6 day war:rolleyes:
Re: Hisardut Dennis Hanover system
quote unstpabl1:…most IDF Krav trainers have prior martial art training not necessarily Krav to get the job. They then teach the sylabus the military tells them to.That is true, most have prior MA experience, but it is mostly KM or Hisardut. Are there military instructors with prior MA exp. in something other than KM/Hisardut? There sure are, but they are a minority.
quote unstpabl1:I’m pretty sure I can find cites, but I don’t claim to be an historian. My understanding was that in WWI Jews were trained by the British with the understanding or promise of a homeland if they fought against the Germans. They reniged. In WWII the British came to them again then pretty much reniged again, but this time after certain groups fought back. Anyway I cpould be wrong and I’ll check my sources.When you grow up in Israel you are taught Israeli and Jewish history to great detail as you are expected to pass exams at the end of 12th grade that test you essentialy on anything you were taught since first grade… I think I did pretty well in History… get your sources right, I will not turn this Forum to a history class.
quote unstpabl1:…how if the Israeli’s would stop oppressing the palestinians and how the UN has taken care of Israel…I will also not get into politics with you but I will just state that in order to fully understand an issue, one should look at it from all sides… I will not turn this forum into a political debate, but your view seems very skewed and malinformed… if you are willing to hear a different opinion I suggest you PM me… otherwise – just keep to the subject of KM.
And BTW, now I understand how well versed you are in the history of my country, especially after telling me the UN “takes care of Israel” LOL!
Re: Hisardut Dennis Hanover system
quote Satilan:When you grow up in Israel you are taught Israeli and Jewish history to great detail as you are expected to pass exams at the end of 12th grade that test you essentialy on anything you were taught since first grade… I think I did pretty well in History… get your sources right, I will not turn this Forum to a history class.I will also not get into politics with you but I will just state that in order to fully understand an issue, one should look at it from all sides… I will not turn this forum into a political debate, but your view seems very skewed and malinformed… if you are willing to hear a different opinion I suggest you PM me… otherwise – just keep to the subject of KM.
And BTW, now I understand how well versed you are in the history of my country, especially after telling me the UN “takes care of Israel” LOL!
rofl2Actually I was Interested in your view of the history and will recheck my sources. The reason I’m laughing is not at you, but i THINK you totally misinterputed my comment. I”m in another discussion on another forum with a few people who believe that the UN takes care of Israel( Thus my comment that the UN guy never heard of the 6 day war, complete with eyeroll smiley, yet has opinions) and are also painting Israel as an opreessor. I don’t agree, but if you have any questions, please feel free to PM me. Anyway I think we agree with each other unless of course you do believe the UN has taken care of Israel:dunno:
The only reason I had mentioned it is because I was little burnt out from looking up sources in the other discussion to look up Cites to back up the info on British promises for a homeland. As I said I may be wrong but I’ll check my sources later when I conclude the other discussion
Hope this clears it up
Re: Hisardut Dennis Hanover system
quote Satilan:When you grow up in Israel you are taught Israeli and Jewish history to great detail as you are expected to pass exams at the end of 12th grade that test you essentialy on anything you were taught since first grade… I think I did pretty well in History… get your sources right, I will not turn this Forum to a history class..
And BTW, now I understand how well versed you are in the history of my country, especially after telling me the UN “takes care of Israel” LOL!
The initial commitment of Britian “formally” to the zionist cause was “The Balfour Declaration” in late 1917. It was promised after the break up of the Ottoman Empire. I think there is a movie on it called The Forgotten Promise
I am aware of British Immigration policies during WWII as I had relatives caught up in it at the time. They passed the stories on. Isn’t the movie Exodus about that? I’ll look into the WWII stuff as I can but Remember reading about the creation of the beginning groups that ended up becoming the IDF
Re: Hisardut Dennis Hanover system
The British still hadn’t honored The Balfour Declaration heading into the 30’s. In 37 the Peel Commision called for the creation of a small Jewish state. The coming war made oil a hot comodity. However the Arab leaders were aligning with the Nazis. In order to win over the arab leaders the British abandoned the Balfour Declaration.
The British trained the Palmach to fight Rommel. In 43 depending on who wrote the article either Britain disbanded or the Palmach left the British due to differences. Now I may be wrong insaying that the British promised them the homeland the Balfour Declaration promised to fight, but I don’t think its far off. Either way the Palmach expected Britian to honor their promise made in 1917 and repromised in 37.
anything you can add to correct this is appreciated. I like history
In any event the reason this all came up was that I felt the start of Krav came from the training recieved from the British in WWII. I have a few friends who teach FAS WWII combatives and they really like krav cause its one of the few systems that hold true to that base
Re: Hisardut Dennis Hanover system
quote unstpabl1:In any event the reason this all came up was that I felt the start of Krav came from the training recieved from the British in WWII. I have a few friends who teach FAS WWII combatives and they really like krav cause its one of the few systems that hold true to that base
You cant be more wrong. About the history i wont get into it cos like you said you learn what you know from other forums so i can understand your knowledge is so far from realty.Krav Maga and Hisrdut are 100% Isreali systems.
Imi Lichtenfeld wasn’t trained bye British army. He is the father of KM system yes it takes elements from other system and adjust them do the street life. the system has its moves and techniques.About the things you say about IDF and Hagana/Palmah. Well you know smart man once said “sometimes the most smart thing to say is saying nothing at all”….
Re: Hisardut Dennis Hanover system
quote :The Palmach was established by the British military and Haganah on May 15, 1941 to help the British protect Palestine from the Nazi German threat. They were also to assist British forces with the planned invasion of Syria and Lebanon, then held by Vichy French forces. British experts trained the Palmach special soldiers and equipped them with small arms and explosives. However, after the British victory at El-Alamein in 1942, the British ordered the dismantling of Palmach. Instead the whole organisation went underground.Source: http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Palmach_-_History/id/5363332
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